A Conversation with Paul Kei Matsuda:
A Writer's Studio Event
Rebekah Shultz Colby

On Thursday, October 18, the Writing Program had the honor of hosting A Writers Studio Event with Paul Kai Matsuda in Penrose Library's Chan Family Classroom.  Writing Program faculty, Kamila Kinyon and Kelli Custer, initially asked questions but then opened up the discussion for the rest of the writing faci;tu, including program director Doug Hesse, to ask their own questions and comments.

Kelli Custer: What are the differences and intersections between composition theory and Teaching English as a Second Language (TESL) theory?
Paul Matsuda: Composition has shifted from the '60s and '70s focus on textual process to more of a social orientation in the '80s. However, TESL has also undergone shifts. Linguistics in the '60s focused on textual structures of language and how they are used. Now, there is more of a shift toward applied, practical linguistics.

The student population between composition and TESL is also different because of differences in language and cultural understanding. Cultural differences cant be taken for granted. It may be even more difficult for English as a Second Language (ESL) students to make the transition culturally from their home countries to college than for native speakers. However, there are still international students in composition classes, and many students could be considered ESL but dont self-identify as international.

Kamila Kinyon: It seems that, in teaching ESL students, they are often segregated from the rest of the university community. Should they be segregated?
They should not be totally cut out from campus culture. It is a difficult issue in identifying ESL writerstheir language use and identity. There is no placement procedure that works perfectly. If you do have a composition course, for instance, that is geared specifically for ESL students, clearly communicate what the differences in the course are. Some students may take a comp class geared for ESL students because they erroneously think that it will be easier than the regular course. So, the course needs to be appropriate for what the students actual needs are. However, teachers have many different options. Placement happens largely in the classroom. Get to know your students through conferencing and class discussions. Know your students writing abilities, but also know how they identify themselves. Remain sensitive to students identity constructions.

Linda Tate: Its challenging to teach some international students. For instance, this past year, I had a student who would come into the classroom five minutes late and leave five minutes earlyjust late enough and early enough so that I wouldnt have to confront him or interact with him at all. In fact, he seemed to avoid all interactions with me. He would never even make eye contact. Do you have any strategies or suggestions?
Purposefully create interactions with the student. Ask him to talk about the teachers hes had in the past and the relationships hes had with them. However, in engaging in this conversation with him, try to remember that college is a cross-cultural boundary crossing for everyone. College is a new culture for both native and nonnative students. So, dont single ESL students out in class. They may self-identify as international students. Many international students will voluntarily want to tell you that they are international students. However, some ESL students may be residents of the US, or some international students may not necessarily want to self-identify. In these cases, singling them out may create negative peer pressure and peer-identification situations with other students. So, in engaging with multicultural students and getting to know more about them, try to create activities that include everyone as well.

Kelli Custer: What are some key issues in working with ESL writers that comp teachers face?
Grammar. Comp has developed ways to talk about grammar that are based on assumptions that work mainly only for white, middle (or upper-middle-class) students. ESL students have not internalized the structures of grammar that native speakers have. While native speakers (including many comp teachers) may have an intuitive grasp of grammar but may not consciously know the formal terms or rules involved, ESL students usually know the formal grammar rules and their names but not always how to apply them correctly in every case intuitively like native speakers. So, composition teachers need to have a working understanding of pedagogical grammar so that they can work with these students and use their knowledge of grammatical terms. So, teachers need a very pragmatic approach to linguistics, not formal, traditional linguistics or teaching students transformational grammar, which is why composition abandoned overt, formal grammar instruction in the first place. The new idea of teaching rhetorical grammar is useful for nonnative speakers but still they will often need more.

Kamila Kinyon: How do you teach grammar to nonnative speakers?
First, look at places where the meaning is unclear. Through meaning, identify places where the language needs to be further worked on. Ignore minor errors initially. Also, keep in mind that students cannot learn everything that you want them to learn about language in ten weeks. Furthermore, keep in mind that the professional context might not be what you think it is. In our increasingly global economy, companies value multilingual workers. For instance, they will often train job interviewers on how to interview multilingual speakers specifically, teaching them to ignore minor grammar mistakes, etc. Advertisements and labels are increasingly multilingual. Manuals are often written in several languages. So, companies value multiple language use. English teachers have developed their own ideas of what companies expect, but these conceptions might not totally be in sync with the current global reality. While language use does affect business perception of competence and ability, grammar mistakes dont impact people who are perceived to be nonnative speakers as harshly. Also, some professors do ignore mistakes made by nonnative speakers more.

Alba Newmann: But how do you dance between ideas and grammar without creating shock for the student later in other classes and professional situations?
There are people who insist on holding on to traditional standards, so help students understand the sociolinguistic reality. Also, distribute grades proportionally. Establish internal standards for yourself, but then clearly communicate your standards and your rationale for them to your students. Some teachers encourage students to experiment with grammar. However, encouraging students to do whatever they want also does a disservice to them. Give students a clear sense of the universitys linguistic standards. Give students strategies for negotiating standards, but also tell them the risks involved in some negotiations, especially if there is a large imbalance of power that puts the student in a much less powerful position.

Casey Rountree: For ESL students, should we assign less reading or apply the same reading standards to everyone?
Reading does take ESL students more time. Often, a lot of challenging reading has the effect of making students intimidated but ultimately proud of themselves in the end if they can persevere through it. However, ESL students may not be capable of processing difficult readings if they are assigned in bulk. However, usually teachers outside of literature assign reading for a specific purpose. So, clearly tell your students what your purpose is in assigning the reading. Tell them what to look for specifically as they read.

Kamila Kinyon: How do you deal with the different conceptions of originality and citation or quotation that many ESL writers have?
Some students do come from cultures where conceptions of originality and citation differ from ours. However, some students also quote too much because its easier than paraphrasing, or they dont know how to paraphrase. So, give concrete examples of quotations and paraphrasing. In the US, plagiarism is considered a sin and a crime. It is not only an ethical issue but a legal issue as well. However, in our emphasis on plagiarism, we dont spend enough time explaining how discourse communities appropriate certain terms and ideas or how new ideas are actually a synthesis of old ideas. For instance, in composition, one of these appropriated terms is discourse community. Its so commonly used now that everyone in the field knows what it means, and it circulates without any need for citation. Also, we need to show students the different reasons we quote. For instance, we often quote as a critique. Without quotation, it would seem as if you were critiquing yourself. However, this is a concrete example of quotation that students can easily see and understand.

Jeff Ludwig: What are you currently working on?
I just finished a handbook of writing development. It is a history of how ideas of writing developed. Another project that I am currently writing examines voice and identity in academic writing. In a previous article, I established a definition of voice that can actually be studied. I created a mock case study and constructed an article and sent it out to two peer reviewers. It showed that people are fairly conscious of a writers identity as they review articles. Through the writers voice, they construct the writers identity. They can tell if a writer is from the Midwest or if a writer is from an educated family, etc. This perceived identity, in turn, affects how a piece is reviewed. This research also impacts writing instruction as well. For instance, if a student is a good writer but is cocky, teachers are more apt to assign a lower grade. If a student constructs an identity of helplessness but seems willing to learn, teachers are apt to assign a higher grade.

Doug Hesse: Should graduate education within composition have a bigger place for TESL?
There have been many attempts at collaboration between compositionists interested in genre and linguists. Compositionists will try to see where the current linguistic camp is at and see if they can collaborate. However, in the past, conversations have not gotten very far since the two fields have different discursive orientationscomp is concerned with the social while linguistics is concerned with formal language structures. However, the two are coming closer together. For instance, linguistics cannot account for everything by focusing solely on language without looking at the social context. There is a lot that applied linguistics and comp can talk about.

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