The Ted Lasso Effect: Stamping Out Hazing in Athletics and Building Strong Team Culture
RadioEd is a biweekly podcast created by the DU Newsroom that taps into the University of Denver’s deep pool of bright brains to explore new takes on today’s top stories. See below for a transcript of this episode.
You've at least heard of Ted Lasso, right? On the Apple TV show, a successful American football coach looks to turn around a failing British football club armed with optimism and biscuits.
While Ted Lasso is a (wonderful) fictional character, there's a lot to be learned from his example. On this episode of RadioEd, Matt sits down with Brian Gearity from DU's Graduate School of Professional Psychology, where he runs the Master of Sport Coaching program, to discuss the finer points of coaching, culture and team building in a world where hazing scandals are still a regular occurrence.
Brian Gearity is founding Director and Assistant Professor of the Master of Arts in Sport Coaching program, the Graduate Certificate in Strength and Conditioning (S&C) and Fitness Coaching, and specialized graduate certificates in S&C and the Psychology of Coaching at the University of Denver. Dr. Gearity has been a S&C coach for youth, high school, collegiate, and professional athletes, including stops at the University of Tennessee and Cleveland Indians. A Fellow of the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA), he is Editor-in-Chief for NSCA Coach, the NSCA’s journal dedicated to the practice of coaching, and Associate-Editor-in-Chief for Strength & Conditioning Journal.
He also serves on the editorial board for Qualitative Research in Sport, Exercise and Health, Sport Coaching Review, International Sport Coaching Journal, and the Journal of Aging and Physical Activity. Dr. Gearity’s research uses sociological and psychological theory to enhance quality coaching. He is co-editor of Coach Education and Development: Instructional Strategies, and co-author of Understanding Strength and Conditioning as Sport Coaching: Bridging the Biophysical, Pedagogical and Sociocultural Foundations of Practice, both published by Routledge in 2020.
Harvard Women’s Hockey Team
New Mexico State Men’s Basketball Team
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And Matt Meyer. Even in 2023, hazing is still a pressing issue. For today's episode of RadioEd, we'll chat with Brian Gearity, director of the Masters of Coaching Program at the University of Denver's Graduate School of Professional Psychology, on the finer points of coaching, culture and how hazing enters the mix. He's also a former college athlete and certified coach with experience at the collegiate and professional levels.
A number of studies from a variety of institutions tell us that across club, high school and college athletics, anywhere between 250,000 and 800,000 athletes are hazed annually in some form or fashion. This can be as seemingly innocent as making freshmen carry the gear bags, all the way up to felony criminal charges. A study out of the University of Maine, which defines hazing as, "Any activity expected of someone joining or participating in a group that humiliates, degrades, abuses or endangers them, regardless of a person's willingness to participate." Posits that 9 out of 10 people who have experienced hazing behavior don't believe they were hazed.
This leads many to believe that hazing isn't a serious problem. For the remaining 10%, hazing has generated hundreds of criminal charges over recent decades. Between 1969 and 2021, there's been at least one hazing death each year, according to Hank Nuwer, a journalism professor at Franklin College in Indiana. During 2022 and 2023, the highest-profile cases have been centered around the New Mexico State University men's basketball team and the Harvard women's hockey team.
We're going to cover some heavy topics today, but it's important to note that we're not here to disparage athletics. Our featured guest is a former college athlete and certified coach. I'm a former athlete and started my career in sports journalism and I've also spent time coaching. There's a ton of good to be gained from athletics. On that note, we've gathered five high school coaches from various sports in different parts of Colorado to describe the best parts of sports culture.
Jeff Buck (01:58):
Hi, my name's Jeff Buck and I'm the head wrestling coach at Cherokee Trail High School.
Melissa Bravo (02:02):
Hi, I'm Melissa Bravo. I'm the head girl's volleyball coach at Discovery Canyon Campus.
Keenon Clement (02:07):
Hi, my name is Keenon Clement. I'm the head boys' basketball coach at Vista PEAK Prep.
John Caricatto (02:10):
Hi, My name's John Caricatto, I'm the head golf coach for the girl's and boy's program at Cheyenne Mountain High School in Colorado Springs.
Danny Fisher (02:19):
Hello, my name is Danny Fisher, I am the head boy's basketball coach at Overland High School.
Jeff Buck (02:31):
Strong team culture means to me-
Melissa Bravo (02:32):
To me, strong culture is-
Keenon Clement (02:32):
Strong team culture means to me-
John Caricatto (02:33):
What I think is important about the culture of high school sports is-
Danny Fisher (02:38):
And strong team culture, to me, means a culture where the example is set at the top by leadership. Then it's absorbed to a point to where the team becomes player led and the culture becomes player led and the accountability becomes player led.
Jeff Buck (02:57):
Creating a culture of a family. I think that's probably the most important part, is when the kids come into the room that they know that we have a family. That wrestling, we end a lot of our days of practices with family, 1, 2, 3 family, because it shows a culture of caring, which for a lot of these kids, this is their family, based on their backgrounds-
Melissa Bravo (03:26):
A set of standards and expectations. Not necessarily rules, but things that the team and coaches hold each other accountable for.
John Caricatto (03:36):
It's a several-prong approach. I think it starts with the parents and the support we get from the parents and the resources that they give their players. The school has a role in this as well, especially at a school that I coach, where our standard for successes is pretty high. The golf course that we practice on, that's also part of the culture.
Keenon Clement (04:04):
It's your expectations, it's your values. It's who you are and what you're going to hold yourself to, the expectations that you're going to hold yourself to.
Matt Meyer (04:14):
All these coaches have had incredible impact and influence on the students they educate through sport. Positive examples of coaching are numerous across all levels and they've even seeped into pop culture on Apple TV's hit show Ted Lasso, where Jason Sudeikis plays the titular character. An almost absurdly optimistic American football coach who takes over the lead spot of a failing British football club, soccer for the Americans among us, and attempts to guide them back to success.
The show delves into a variety of characters' personal problems, but the heart is Ted Lasso's positive interactions with his players. When Brian Gearity thinks of strong team cultures, that's the most public example. What are some examples of good rituals, the good kind of patterns that can be perpetrated by coaches and players?
Brian Gearity (04:53):
The easiest nowadays is just to think probably of Ted Lasso and just use Ted Lasso's examples of how do I celebrate in the locker room? How do I give a good award, a weightlifting award, an Ironman Award, a hard practice jersey? Nowadays, they're doing either the jerseys or the change or the take home sort of thing. Like my son the other day, from lacrosse, he's got in the last couple weeks, the 11-year-old got a golden ball for lacrosse, I think it was for defense. Then he got a hammer, a golden hammer for general teamwork and improvement and consistency.
So, awards like that, recognitions like that, yeah, end of the season awards, mid-season awards, senior night and homecomings can be good things and positive rituals. Having captains elected on the team and especially if it's voted or there's some sort of democratic process, where people are nominating folks to identify who they want to be their leaders and why.
Matt Meyer (05:53):
What are the fundamentals that are taught to coaches when it comes to creating a healthy culture?
Brian Gearity (05:58):
Well, none. I mean, to answer your question cheeky, I mean, because coaching education, and this is always the same line that I repeat, coaching is not a profession. Coaching is not well regulated. Coaches have very all over the place educational pathways. Even at the beginning, we've got to challenge the assumption that there is some sort of norm for coaching education, because there's not. When you look at locally, city government or the state or federally, there is no system usually for sport, or it's very minimal.
To really answer the question, now, what do most places do or what's common practice, they require, usually, a concussion safety program now. That's been recent, in the last couple years. Before that, a CPR, maybe CPR and first aid. Maybe a coaching philosophy and a technical development 101. A lot of times, that was an hour here and there. That's kind of typical for a lot of things. You look at college coaches or professional coaches and their educational pathways are all over the place. I mean, a good percentage of them have physical education and exercise, or kinesiology and sports studies, sport management backgrounds, but it's not required.
There's no oversight and there's not a lot of ongoing professional development that's required again. Then specifically for this topic, because most of the coaching education looks at technical, tactical, so Xs and Os and how to teach a skill, how to hit a ball, how to throw, how to kick. Then it might get into a little bit of sports psychology, sports sociology, philosophy, some human development and injury prevention, exercise physiology, biomechanics. Heavily depending on where you went to school, it could be heavily exercise science oriented, could also be combination with liberal arts and social behavioral sciences and arts and humanities.
But, coaches get, in general, across the board, little formal required education on how to build a culture, even know what culture is. For example, I'm teaching right now at DU. For the first time in 10 years, I'm teaching sociology of sport for undergrads here. It's offered in the sociology department and I just agreed to teach it. In our coaching master's degree, we have several courses that teach about culture and social identities and social issues, ethical issues, which are social issues. We spend a good bit of time on it, and part of that is breaking down even what we mean by culture.
If we're talking about shared beliefs and rituals and symbols and meaning making, that's generally a blanket definition of culture. Today, I'm just leaving class today and we're talking about race and gender, bit on deviance and violence and conformity. There's romantic notions in sport, about we're all going to be a unified team and team building and support each other. Be a great teammate, lift up the team, but it's often very generic language without a lot of clarity.
What you try to think about, too, is connecting the culture with the actual behaviors. What does that look like in practice? Today, I even asked athletes in the classroom, "Tell me about the rules on the team." Don't do drugs, alcohol, don't break the NCAA rules, be a good teammate, go to class, typical kind of stuff. I go, "Anybody say, 'Don't be a racist'? 'Don't tell sexist jokes'? 'Don't be homophobic in the locker room'?"
A variety of things that we're talking about, social issues and culture that are in everyday life, but you don't hear that, because again, most coaches, they tend to be white, male coaches like myself, and heterosexual. There's a concept of heteronormativity, so a lot of the actual cultural issues and social identities that people bring into their public spaces or the locker room and on the field or court just really never get taught. We talk about it, usually in a hard work, work ethic sort of way.
Be a good teammate, don't let the team down, sacrifice for the team regardless of if that means run your head into the wall or play injured. Which also happens is that people, we call it over-conformity, in that deviance leads to over-identification with being an athlete and a teammate and then you don't hold your other teammates accountable when they do wrong or bad things. You see that in other institutions, like police, military, schools or church religious groups that, because of that over-identification in one area, they don't hold each other accountable. So, being a good teammate or being a good person in that role often means your culture is going to suffer, because you're actually not having a broader, more aware view of culture.
Matt Meyer (10:51):
The high-profile examples of hazing and abuse are numerous. Just this year, there have been at least three criminal cases centered around high school athletics, either involving assault or sexual assault. In college athletics, the New Mexico State men's basketball team's latest campaign was canceled mid-season after a hazing scandal. Two members of the team have now brought lawsuits which detail alleged treatment where a player was ordered to, "Do squats as they slapped his buttocks."
There were several other allegations, some sexual in nature, with the suit taking aim at three of their teammates, two coaches and the New Mexico State Board of Regents. The Harvard women's hockey team is led by Katey Stone. In her 27 seasons helming the Crimson, she's become the sport's winningest female coach. According to a report from The Athletic, Stone is accused of turning a blind eye to hazing, using abusive language against players and running the team like a quote, "Mental health hunger games."
Pulling from interviews with 30 former players and team associates, The Athletic reported that players were subjected to a fining system based on what they wore or ate, including a, "Gay tax" or an, "Asian tax." freshmen were told to complete a naked skate that left them with, "Ice burns and bleeding nipples." Players were also hazed during an annual initiation week, The Athletic reported, which alumni attended in some years. The report also adds that generations of Stone's players characterize the program as, "Pushing the boundaries of acceptable treatment of athletes."
Harvard athletic director Erin McDermott responded in writing to the students, faculty and staff at the school. She wrote, "The most important job I have as director of athletics is protecting student athlete health and safety. It's also paramount to our culture and community for all to be treated with dignity and respected as individuals. The conduct alleged does not represent who we are as a Harvard Athletics community. There is no place for behavior that creates peer pressure, humiliation or physical and emotional harm."
When a hazing incident makes the news, it's very often violent or a particularly egregious offense. What are some of the costs to a team structure with hazing? What does it create? What does it do to coaches and what does it do to players?
Brian Gearity (12:55):
Well, at that time it creates conformity. You fall in line, especially if you're younger, and who usually gets hazed is the incoming person and the newcomer to the team. Supposedly initiates you into the team to help you be a good teammate, to give you a ritual of the team, to let you understand what the values and the practices that are acceptable in that group setting are going to be.
I remember, I got hazed when I played college football. I mean, first year coming in as a freshman and a lot of times, it was horrific. In addition to putting you up on literally a block or a chair in the dormitory, then they have you up there, I think, shirtless. They start asking all sorts of personal questions.
Matt Meyer (13:40):
Gearity goes on to describe a situation where, during the hazing incident, one end of a string was attached to the player's genitals, the other to a brick and the perpetrators pretended to throw the brick and scare the athlete.
Brian Gearity (13:52):
A lot of hazing and things like that, you never hear about it, because part of the code is not to talk about it. That, if you brought out that out to light, especially this is 20 years ago, 25 years ago, you threatened the team. You threatened the older upperclassmen that are exerting more power and dominance over you and the institution itself. The institution doesn't want people to know about it either, because it's not only embarrassing and a PR nightmare, but it's highly problematic or unethical and illegal, often.
This was an assault, but at the time you're just going along with it and not even disturbing the norm and the patterns. Partly terrified of what's going to happen and the consequences of it. There's some of the bad stuff, I mean, the good stuff could be, depending on, hazing now is inherently negative. If it was a good ritual and that's part of what we educate, right? Is, if it's a ritual, that's different.
A ritual could be positive, like a birthday, a wedding, a bar mitzvah, a quinceañera. You've got a variety of rituals that are symbolic things that are meant to be celebrations and passing through stages of development and achievements. But, hazing is inherently a negative process and outcome, where I would disagree with anybody that says part of that is building the team as a positive thing. I think that's a deviant sort of way of looking at being a good team.
Matt Meyer (15:10):
From a coaching standpoint, we've talked about how, at one point this was widespread. I mean, you talked about encountering it with football, I encountered it with baseball. This is something that happens, but it feels like these days, coaches are at least a little bit more aware of it or administrators are making coaches more aware of it. From a coach who's looking out for these things, what are some signs they can look for, even if they don't necessarily see it on the surface in front of them?
Brian Gearity (15:36):
One is having a rule or probably a policy and a practice about it. Just saying flat out, "This isn't going to be the way that we're going to run the organization." Most places, they would do harassment training and the same kind of thing. You could do anti-hazing training and talk about it. Coaches generally know, too, that if they're in the locker room, if they're asking questions and paying attention to things, they generally were going to hear things. If they don't or if they're not asking and have their head in the sand, there's a lack of institutional control or accountability and they're just flat out not even trying or not even bothering.
A lot of times, that's what they'll do, is they don't even want to touch it or address it and they'll just put their head in the sand and say, "Well, they did that outside of the facility." Or something like that, "So, we're not responsible." If somebody exhibits physical trauma, physical abuse or dehydration, vomiting, all those things are outcomes from hazing, from either binge-drinking or just drinking, making it forced, drinking milk and then rolling you is a hazing ritual too.
Some sort of physical, mental, emotional trauma and stress. If people aren't coming to practice, if they're not going to the locker room, you would generally look for some sort of abnormal behavior, outside of their norm behavior, or some manifestation of some extra stress or trauma.
Matt Meyer (16:53):
Then it's one thing if a coach notices an incident or it's brought to light through outside channels, but what happens if a player brings it up? I mean, coaches have a lot of responsibility when players bring things to them, but particularly with hazing, what happens if a player is the one to bring this up?
Brian Gearity (17:12):
If the player brings it up, I mean, the coaches should take it, one, seriously. A lot of times, unfortunately, again, coaches might be quick to dismiss or reproduce or not recognize the seriousness of something. A lot of times, these things are actually illegal and if they're actually doing assaults or forced things to people's bodies, some of it is abusive or violent. They should be recognizing that and not doing those types of things, regardless if you think somebody shouldn't just man up and be tough enough and that's the culture that you have of the team. I mean, that's one of those cultural things that needs to change.
I think it's a good opportunity for the teacher coach or for the coach educator, as opposed to the business coach or the professional coach that cares nothing about, really, or minimally, and really cares more about winning and profit and status quo. Any coach that claims to be any sort of leader, educator, teacher, humanitarian, or having any sort of humanistic philosophy that's worth a [inaudible 00:18:11], they're going to address that with the team, talk about it. They may have to figure out how to protect that athlete's safety too.
If there's retaliation within the team, somebody might try to target somebody for so-called snitching or ratting somebody out. That's a kind of dynamic that that's real, but they want to hopefully proactively address that, just like you would with an orientation or onboarding. That, "We're going to talk about what's acceptable here and keep our thumb on the pulse of what's going on in the team in a more upfront, proactive way." Then, if you need to bring in authorities, and that's the other thing.
In sports, especially in the old days, universities or pro teams would have a connection with local law enforcement or their own security staff, their own judicial system. Like the coach is the judge, jury and executioner. You see this in the media, the coach will decide, the team will decide. In some of these cases, you're talking about, again, really illegal things that should be reported out.
You could also have an ombudsperson or a third party comes in and tries to adjudicate different things. I think that would be good. If that person was really objective or in a third party and could do their work well, if they're really just a showpiece and it's a performative sort of thing, then that's not desirable. Checks and balances in that regard.
Matt Meyer (19:30):
Then there's a segment of the population, and again, this was especially true in the past, that wonder how much coaches should be held accountable for stuff like this. The, "Boys will be boys, players are going to do what players are going to do." You see it pop up when these controversies happen, coaches saying, "I didn't know." How much should coaches be held accountable for stuff like this?
Brian Gearity (19:50):
Yeah, I would generally, again, push back. I think the coaches generally always know, especially depending how long it goes on, the coaches know. Well, one, we have examples of it, we have reports of it. Having been there and worked in it, you know that they know. They're like the omnipresent, omniscient and they have their tentacles into everything, that they know what's going on for the most part. If they don't know, then they're incompetent and they're ignorant to what the realities of their job are and they don't need to be leading in those positions anyway.
In some way, shape or form, they need to be held accountable. If a university or a business did that, at some point there would be serious fines or firings or possible court, civil or criminal issues. We see that when it rises to that kind of level, in sports, unfortunately, it doesn't really often rise to that level, because there's hardly any external or state accountability or federal accountability. So, a lot of places operate in their own monarchies or fiefdoms that, they get away with almost doing anything.
I wish people were more aware of that, had places to report things to, had investigators and others that actually looked into things and then ding the coaches and suspend them. Again, a lot of that is done on a case-by-case basis, which is part of the problem then. So, it becomes systemic that, "There's not a lot of oversight or regulation and so who do I even tell?" Then, if you don't like this coach and they fire them, well, somebody else might say, "Well, okay, well, we'll hire them now."
Really, if you were a medical doctor or a lawyer in malpractice or a electrician that kept on blowing up houses for some reason, eventually the system would change, but in sports, we haven't really changed the system much. What we expect in our ethical code in sports is a little bit all over the place, despite what talking heads and institutions might say. The reality of it is, they're not independent, they're not objective, there's not a formal education. There's no professionalization of licensure certification or ethical review and third-party review. It doesn't really have a lot of those things built into the system.
Matt Meyer (22:00):
It sounds like you're saying that there needs to be maybe a little bit more oversight, there needs to be more consistent pathways for coaches to get a better education?
Brian Gearity (22:08):
Oh, for sure. Coaches would benefit, and again, not everybody has to go to college or get a four-year degree or a master's degree. Certainly, we have enough research to know that coaches that do receive formal education and ongoing development coach better. They have better outcomes, from winning to technical development to a range of psychosocial development benefits. Retention rates, participation rates, likability, self-esteem, physical activity over a lifetime.
We know that and we can always use more research for that, but we already know that much. It's like saying the difference between a phys-ed kinesiology major compared to your average art history major. I took my art history class and that's a great class, but when I want somebody that has a holistic, well-rounded education, I prefer somebody that actually studied this stuff, on average, doing better.
Then the accountability thing is just huge too, because otherwise, people will dismiss it as, "A few bad apples. Nothing to see here. We've handled it, we've handled it very strongly and we are out in the media telling everybody with our PR machine that, 'Nothing to see here' and we'll make it quietly go away." Because the industry and the business thrives on nice news, not on being critical and not on holding people accountable, unfortunately.
Matt Meyer (23:24):
Now, what can athletes do to police this amongst themselves? Has there been any meaningful change over time in the way that athletes are educated on these types of things?
Brian Gearity (23:34):
When I think of education versus school, this is a good debate, but they're educated on it, because they live it and they're seeing it. But, I think today's age, we just got done with talking about this in class, social media provides a way for folks to engage that previously didn't exist. With video surveillance, and again, this is one of the positives and you wonder about surveillance all the time, but with cameras everywhere, for the most part, with social media pervasive throughout society too, there's ways for athletes to engage in activism and advocacy in a meaningful way and get things out there.
Hitting the bottom dollar, the bottom line, shaming people and getting out there in the public will sometimes do some good. Specific to hazing, you'll see athletes start to talk about, too, and communicate to each other and figure out, "Hey, is this coach or doctor or trainer touching you inappropriately?" They're able to connect and they're starting to put things out there on social media. But again, because of the shame that goes with it, it often silences people too. Getting folks to that are experiencing it to talk about it is hard.
People would ask a follow up question, Matt, related to it, "Well, what would it need to change?" Part of what I often think about, like a thought experiment, if colleges were more free and affordable, or high school athletes had the opportunity to go play in college more readily and the coaches didn't have so much power over their future or they didn't have to get a scholarship or be there, then people would be more readily talking. In a hypothetical world, I'd love to see the relations of power shift and the opportunity to where you're not beholden to a single, solitary person or a small group of people or one institution for such a meaningful thing. I think I'm dreaming on that regard.
Matt Meyer (25:28):
Then this doesn't have to be specifically about hazing, it can be about any rotten cultural setting around coaching anyway, but are there case studies, specific instances that you examine when you're educating students? Are there specific news items or recognizable coaching controversies that you guys look at?
Brian Gearity (25:47):
Too many. There's too many. It really is. I mean, weekly, I say this. Hazing's a specific sort of thing, but abuse and violence is so pervasive that weekly, I can run a report right now on Google and find thousands of examples. The big ones in recent years, USA Gymnastics, obviously, Michigan State, Penn State, [inaudible 00:26:11] and Iowa State, but there's tons of high school examples that, weekly, the coach got fired or this coach is under investigation for verbal harassment.
One in Steubenville. I grew up in Ohio, this was a couple years ago, Steubenville, Ohio. The coaches knowingly covered up sexual assault and rape on the team. There's some court documents, when you can get into court documents and show that people knew this stuff and how long they knew it. You're like, "Man, why? Why? How? This is 2023 now, how is this?" It's still happening, it's been happening, it continues to happen. I use, in my world of strength conditioning coaching too, there's a website that had a journalist out of, I think it's Marist College. Keeps, it's not running a running list, but at one point they had a couple decades' worth of data and it's still on the website that showed how many, in this case just college athletes, had died due to conditioning practices, mostly in football.
There's usually several athletes that die every year, high school to college-age athletes die, usually through inappropriate conditioning. Now, that's not hazing per se, unless the hazing gets to be a physical ritual, which sometimes it is, but another form of violence and abuse against the athletes. Another common one, you said baseball too. This still happens in baseball too, that the pro athletes will make the rookies dress up as girls or put them in scantily clothes. That's a pretty common one too, that I just pull that one every year to the San Diego Padres or somebody still encourages that.
"Well, the veterans do it too." Or, "Everybody can dress up, but we're going to make the rookies do it." We all have a good laugh, we put it out there and we normalize it. Go, "Hahaha, isn't that fun?" They go, "Yeah, this is typical male bonding, but where else does it lead to?" It leads to maybe over-conformity and over-identification. You just go, "Why? Can you not find a more healthy, Ted Lasso-style way of building a team together without embarrassing, shaming, using negative stereotypes and tropes, cultural stereotypes?"
Some of the places would have skits and you have to act something out and they're going to use a lot of social identities. Racist, sexist, homophobic sort of tropes. If you think that's healthy, you got a sick I sick idea of health. That's exactly what we got to problematize and say out there, that, "This is not acceptable. We can do better in this. Let's go ahead and critique this." The sports in the games sometimes are already so violent and traumatic enough on your bodies that you don't need to continue to contribute to it in a unhealthy, unethical, sad way. After you think about it and reflect, you can do better by people, and we should.
Matt Meyer (29:09):
Thanks again to Brian Gearity for lending his expertise to this episode of RadioEd. Ryan runs the MA sport coaching program in the Graduate School of Professional Psychology, which educates and prepares coaches of all sports and levels to enhance athlete, team or client performance. Special thanks to Jeff Buck at Cherokee Trail High School, Melissa Bravo at Discovery Canyon, Keenon Clement with Vista PEAK Prep, John Caricatto with Cheyenne Mountain and longtime Overland coach Danny Fisher for taking time to discuss culture with me.
Several of their answers needed to be trimmed down for time and it's important to highlight how passionate these coaches are in educating young folks. Tamara Chapman is our managing editor and Débora Rocha is our production assistant. James Swearingen arranged our theme. I'm Matt Meyer and this is RadioEd.